(no subject)
Aug. 6th, 2006 10:40 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
Jen and I were briefly talking about whether or not the New Testament specifically addresses homosexuality, and I only remembered now. So, here are various translations of the passage I was thinking of (1 Corinthians 9-10):
Explicitly Mention Homosexuality:
NIV: 9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
NASB: 9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
NLV: 9 Do you not know that sinful men will have no place in the holy nation of God? Do not be fooled. A person who does sex sins, or who worships false gods, or who is not faithful in marriage, or men who act like women, or people who do sex sins with their own sex, will have no place in the holy nation of God. 10 Also those who steal, or those who always want to get more of everything, or who get drunk, or who say bad things about others, or take things that are not theirs, will have no place in the holy nation of God.
Don't Explicitly Mention Homosexuality, But Could Be Interpreted As Including It:
KJV: 9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
The Message: 9-10 Don't you realize that this is not the way to live? Unjust people who don't care about God will not be joining in his kingdom. Those who use and abuse each other, use and abuse sex, use and abuse the earth and everything in it, don't qualify as citizens in God's kingdom.
DRB: 9 Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, 10 Nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners, shall possess the kingdom of God.
RSE: 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.
So: it may depend on your definition of "sexual perverts", or who "the effeminate" or "abusers of themselves with mankind" are, or what "sex sins" are... but Corinthians is definitely NT, and there's definitely an argument to be made that homosexuality is condemned, either directly or by association.
Explicitly Mention Homosexuality:
NIV: 9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
NASB: 9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
NLV: 9 Do you not know that sinful men will have no place in the holy nation of God? Do not be fooled. A person who does sex sins, or who worships false gods, or who is not faithful in marriage, or men who act like women, or people who do sex sins with their own sex, will have no place in the holy nation of God. 10 Also those who steal, or those who always want to get more of everything, or who get drunk, or who say bad things about others, or take things that are not theirs, will have no place in the holy nation of God.
Don't Explicitly Mention Homosexuality, But Could Be Interpreted As Including It:
KJV: 9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
The Message: 9-10 Don't you realize that this is not the way to live? Unjust people who don't care about God will not be joining in his kingdom. Those who use and abuse each other, use and abuse sex, use and abuse the earth and everything in it, don't qualify as citizens in God's kingdom.
DRB: 9 Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, 10 Nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners, shall possess the kingdom of God.
RSE: 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.
So: it may depend on your definition of "sexual perverts", or who "the effeminate" or "abusers of themselves with mankind" are, or what "sex sins" are... but Corinthians is definitely NT, and there's definitely an argument to be made that homosexuality is condemned, either directly or by association.
no subject
Date: 2006-08-07 03:57 am (UTC)To a society that was reliant upon procreation to spread its culture, any sexual relationship not resulting in the production of children would be viewed in a poor light. Also considering that these societies were trying to distance themselves from their neighbours, they'd probably move away from homosexuality which was prevalent (and even popular) in both Egyptian and Roman society.
In modern society, many of these concerns are no longer applicable. Procreation is no longer required (indeed, it's suggested our planet may be over-populated). Given the prevalent nature of heterosexuality in modern day, the division from the rest of society isn't a valid reason.
People rarely investigate or consider the social reasoning behind religious tenets. Don't forget guys, religious books are written by humans who are prone to submitting their own social beliefs as the word of god. Remember that next time someone shouts about what their god says.
no subject
Date: 2006-08-07 06:34 pm (UTC)And I would agree with the "social issues" argument, except for the fact that male homosexuality was often in addition to, not a rejection of, [married] heterosexuality. Married men recieving male concubines as wedding gifts and so on.
no subject
Date: 2006-08-07 05:50 am (UTC)Besides which Paul was too focused on the Church of Law rather than the Church of Love for me to lose sleep over what he wrote.
no subject
Date: 2006-08-07 06:11 pm (UTC)And I do know that there are instances of words that have the same root/meaning being translated slightly differently [ergon (? I think) = either works or deeds].
My point is more that yes, most English copies of the NT do still explicitly (or not-so-explicitly, but it's easy to make the logical leap there) condemn homosexuality.
no subject
Date: 2006-08-07 10:16 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-08-07 06:14 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-08-07 06:36 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-08-07 06:44 pm (UTC)It's also in the NT, with Paul laying down the rules, even when most of the OT [at least, Leviticus] rules were done away with.
no subject
Date: 2006-08-07 11:26 pm (UTC)And historically speaking, the OT is important to understand where Christianity came from, what sort of ideas it was growing out of. Now that I think of it, I don't think the Bible states "Do only as the Bible tells you", anyway ;)
*hugs* Less hate is a good idea all around, and we live in continually disappointing times for that, don't we...
no subject
Date: 2006-08-07 11:31 pm (UTC)I know at least some Christian traditions believe in the infallibility of the Bible, making it the literal word-of-God, meaning that following it is really your only way to go, but it's not everyone.
And, the point of the conversation that this sprung from wasn't "don't believe in the Bible because X", or "the Bible absolutely condemns homosexuality" or anything... it was more a "it's not just the OT that references homosexuality, here's proof".
I mean, it's perfectly valid to say that it's Paul, not necessarily the big JC (and Paul was a wacky sort of guy), or that there are issues of translation (since Paul seems to have made up the word translated as "homosexual" here, at least according to religioustolerance.org), but not that the sentiment isn't there at all.
no subject
Date: 2006-08-07 07:07 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-08-07 07:08 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-08-08 04:08 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-08-08 06:14 pm (UTC)